50 ideas
22611 | Metaphysics can criticise interpretations of science theories, and give good feedback [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Metaphysics is capable of critical scrutiny of the way the empirical sciences make sense of their own theories, and can provide them with very useful feedback. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1.9) | |
A reaction: I agree with this, but I don't think it is the main job of metaphysics, which has its own agenda, using science as some of its raw material. |
18915 | If facts are the truthmakers, they are not in the world [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: If there are such things as truthmakers (facts), they are not to be found in the world. As Strawson would say to Austin: there is the cat, there is the mat, but where in the world is the fact that the cat is on the mat? | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) | |
A reaction: He cites Strawson, Quine and Davidson for this point. |
18919 | There are no 'falsifying' facts, only an absence of truthmakers [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: A false proposition is not made false by anything like a 'falsifying' fact. A false proposition simply fails to be made true by any fact. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) | |
A reaction: Sounds good. In truthmaker theory, one truth-value (T) is 'made', but the other one is not, so there is no symmetry between the two. Better to talk of T and not-T? See ideas on Excluded Middle. |
18913 | Traditional term logic struggled to express relations [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: The greatest challenge for traditional term logicians was the proper formulation and treatment of relational expressions. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005]) | |
A reaction: The modern term logic of Fred Sommers claims to have solved this problem. |
18907 | Term logic rests on negated terms or denial, and that propositions are tied pairs [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: That terms can be negated, that such negation is distinguishable from denial, and that propositions can be construed syntactically as predicationally tied pairs of terms, are important for the tree theory of predication, and for term logic. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 2) |
18912 | Was logic a branch of mathematics, or mathematics a branch of logic? [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Nineteenth century logicians debated whether logic should be treated simply as a branch of mathematics, and mathematics could be applied to it, or whether mathematics is a branch of logic, with no mathematics used in formulating logic. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 3) | |
A reaction: He cites Boole, De Morgan and Peirce for the first view, and Frege and Russell (and their 'logicism') for the second. The logic for mathematics slowly emerged from doing it, long before it was formalised. Mathematics is the boss? |
22609 | Philosophers accepted first-order logic, because they took science to be descriptive, not explanatory [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: First-order predicate logic was accepted so easily by the philosophical community …because philosophy was already geared toward a neo-Humean view of both science and philosophy as primarily descriptive rather than explanatory. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1.8) | |
A reaction: The point, I think, is that explanatory thinking needs second-order logic, where the properties (or powers) are players in the game, and not just adjuncts of the catalogue of objects. I find this idea mind-expanding. (That's a good thing). |
18905 | Propositions can be analysed as pairs of terms glued together by predication [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Sommers's 'tree theory' of predication assumes that propositions can be analysed as pairs of terms joined by some kind of predicational glue. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 2) | |
A reaction: This is the basis of Sommers's upgraded Aristotelian logic, known as Term Logic. The idea of reasoning with 'terms', rather than with objects, predicates and quantifiers, seems to me very appealing. I think I reason more about facts than about objects. |
18922 | Logical syntax is actually close to surface linguistic form [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: The underlying logical syntax of language is close to the surface syntax of ordinary language. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 5) | |
A reaction: This is the boast of the Term logicians, in opposition to the strained and unnatural logical forms of predicate logic, which therefore don't give a good account of the way ordinary speakers reason. An attractive programme. 'Terms' are the key. |
18908 | Standard logic only negates sentences, even via negated general terms or predicates [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Standard logic recognises only one kind of negation: sentential negation. Consequently, negation of a general term/predicate always amounts to negation of the entire sentence. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 3) |
18917 | Existence and nonexistence are characteristics of the world, not of objects [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Existence and nonexistence are not primarily properties of individual objects (dogs, unicorns), but of totalities. To say that some object exists is just to say that it is a constituent of the world, which is a characteristic of the world, not the object. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) | |
A reaction: This has important implications for the problem of truthmakers for negative existential statements (like 'there are no unicorns'). It is obviously a relative of Armstrong's totality facts that do the job. Not sure about 'a characteristic of'. |
22629 | Basic processes are said to be either physical, or organic, or psychological [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Process philosophy is considered to include ideas of process as basically physical (Whitehead 1929), as basically organic (Bergson 1910), and as basically psychological (James 1890). | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 7.4) | |
A reaction: I take Whitehead to be the only serious contender here. |
16062 | A necessary relation between fact-levels seems to be a further irreducible fact [Lynch/Glasgow] |
Full Idea: It seems unavoidable that the facts about logically necessary relations between levels of facts are themselves logically distinct further facts, irreducible to the microphysical facts. | |
From: Lynch,MP/Glasgow,JM (The Impossibility of Superdupervenience [2003], C) | |
A reaction: I'm beginning to think that rejecting every theory of reality that is proposed by carefully exposing some infinite regress hidden in it is a rather lazy way to do philosophy. Almost as bad as rejecting anything if it can't be defined. |
16061 | If some facts 'logically supervene' on some others, they just redescribe them, adding nothing [Lynch/Glasgow] |
Full Idea: Logical supervenience, restricted to individuals, seems to imply strong reduction. It is said that where the B-facts logically supervene on the A-facts, the B-facts simply re-describe what the A-facts describe, and the B-facts come along 'for free'. | |
From: Lynch,MP/Glasgow,JM (The Impossibility of Superdupervenience [2003], C) | |
A reaction: This seems to be taking 'logically' to mean 'analytically'. Presumably an entailment is logically supervenient on its premisses, and may therefore be very revealing, even if some people think such things are analytic. |
22633 | Indirect realists are cautious about the manifest image, and prefer the scientific image [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: The indirect realist regards the manifest image with scepticism and contrasts it to the scientific image. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 8.13) | |
A reaction: This is why indirect realism is the best view for a realist who largely accepts the authority of science, Philosophers can wallow in the manifest image all they like (and most of them seem to love it), but truth is in the scientific image. |
16060 | Nonreductive materialism says upper 'levels' depend on lower, but don't 'reduce' [Lynch/Glasgow] |
Full Idea: The root intuition behind nonreductive materialism is that reality is composed of ontologically distinct layers or levels. …The upper levels depend on the physical without reducing to it. | |
From: Lynch,MP/Glasgow,JM (The Impossibility of Superdupervenience [2003], B) | |
A reaction: A nice clear statement of a view which I take to be false. This relationship is the sort of thing that drives people fishing for an account of it to use the word 'supervenience', which just says two things seem to hang out together. Fluffy materialism. |
16064 | The hallmark of physicalism is that each causal power has a base causal power under it [Lynch/Glasgow] |
Full Idea: Jessica Wilson (1999) says what makes physicalist accounts different from emergentism etc. is that each individual causal power associated with a supervenient property is numerically identical with a causal power associated with its base property. | |
From: Lynch,MP/Glasgow,JM (The Impossibility of Superdupervenience [2003], n 11) | |
A reaction: Hence the key thought in so-called (serious, rather than self-evident) 'emergentism' is so-called 'downward causation', which I take to be an idle daydream. |
18916 | Facts are not in the world - they are properties of the world [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Facts must be viewed as properties of the world - not as things in the world. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) | |
A reaction: Not sure I'm happy with either of these. Do animals grasp facts? If not, are they (as Strawson said) just the truths expressed by true sentences? That is not a clear idea either, given that facts are not the sentences themselves. Facts overlap. |
18921 | Individuals are arranged in inclusion categories that match our semantics [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: The natural categories of individuals are arranged in a hierarchy of inclusion relations that is isomorphic with the linguistic semantic structure. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 5) | |
A reaction: This is the conclusion of a summary of modern Term Logic. The claim is that Sommers discerned this structure in our semantics (via the study of 'terms'), and was pleasantly surprised to find that it matched a plausible structure of natural categories. |
22606 | Neo-Humeans say there are no substantial connections between anything [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Neo-Humean metaphysics holds the view that there are no substantial connections between anything in this world. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1) | |
A reaction: A very illuminating comment. This exactly fits Lewis's great 'mosaic' of facts. The challenge is to say what 'substantial' relations there might be, but I'm quite happy to have a go at that. |
22631 | Properties are said to be categorical qualities or non-qualitative dispositions [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: It is said that that properties divide into two mutually exclusive types—non-dispositional qualities (sometimes called 'categorical properties’) vs. non-qualitative dispositions—of which the qualities are more fundamental than dispositions. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 8) | |
A reaction: It is standardly understood that the qualitative categorical properties are more fundamental. Fans of powers (such as Ingthorsson and myself) either favour the dispositional properties, or reject the distinction. |
22632 | Physics understands the charge of an electron as a power, not as a quality [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Is the negative charge of an electron a quality or power? It is clear that physics describes the nature of charge only in terms of what its bearer can do. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 8.06) | |
A reaction: The point is that an electron has properties, even though it has no observable qualities. Ingthorsson says the scientific concept of qualities is entirely about what something can do, and ot how it is perceived. |
22627 | Compound objects are processes, insofar as change is essential to them [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Compound objects are to be considered processes, if by ‘process’ we mean any entity for which change is essential for its continued existence. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 7) | |
A reaction: This doesn't seem to matter much, except to challenge those who say that reality consists of processes, and therefore not of substances. |
22613 | Most materialist views postulate smallest indivisible components which are permanent [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Most materialist ontologies of the past postulate that the world ultimately consists of smallest indivisible component parts that persist because they must; they are permanent. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 2.1) | |
A reaction: Van Inwagen is notable for this view. Ingthorsson says the theory is to explain medium-sized change, while denying that anything comes to be out of nothing. Theology may lurk in the background. Simple persistance won't explain compound persistance. |
22612 | Endurance and perdurance just show the consequences of A or B series time [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Endurance and perdurance are not explanations, but are merely characterisations of persistance with the constraints imposed by either an A or a B view of time. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 2.1) | |
A reaction: This is 3-D asnd 4-D objects. A simple and illuminating observation. I love reading broad brush books that make all these simple connections between what seem isolated theories in philosophy. These links are the heart of the subject. |
22625 | Science suggests causal aspects of the constitution and persistance of objects [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: There are very obvious causal aspects to the constitution and continued existence of compound entities, especially in light of the scientific image of the world. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 6) | |
A reaction: I like this a lot. He aims to explain constitution and persistance, rather than just describing or characterising them, and causal binding seems the obvious thought. There are still intermittent and distributed objects, like a dismantled clock. |
22620 | If causation involves production, that needs persisting objects [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: If causation involves production, then things must endure rather than perdure, because perdurance is incompatible with production, if creation ex nihilo is ruled out. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 4.10) | |
A reaction: That is, objects must persist over time. Cannot an account of production be given in terms of time-sliceS (or whatever)? 3-D perdurantists obviously have an account of change. He says it also needs the A-series view of time. |
22636 | Every philosophical theory must be true in some possible world, so the ontology is hopeless [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Possible worlds ontology appears to be plentiful enough to allow every philosophical theory to be true in some world or other, and that is why I cannot consider it an ontologically serious theory. It admits everything and forbids nothing | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 9.6) | |
A reaction: Nice. Be careful what you wish for. The theory would have to be consistent (unless we also accept impossible worlds). |
22638 | Worlds may differ in various respects, but no overall similarity of worlds is implied [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Even if possible worlds could differ in many different respects, there is no useful way to combine these different respects into one measure of overall comparative similarity. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 9.7) | |
A reaction: [idea of Michael Moreau 2010] This is an objection to the use of 'close' possible worlds in causation theories. The idea is true in general of the concept of similarity. It makes sense of specific 'respects', but not really of two whole objects. |
18918 | Terms denote objects with properties, and statements denote the world with that property [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: In term logic, what a term denotes are the objects having the property it signifies. What a statement denotes is the world, that which has the constitutive property it signifies. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) |
18920 | 'Socrates is wise' denotes a sentence; 'that Socrates is wise' denotes a proposition [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: Whereas 'Socrates is wise' denotes a sentence, 'that Socrates is wise' denotes a proposition. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 4) | |
A reaction: In traditional parlance, 'reported speech' refers to the underlying proposition, because it does not commit to the actual words being used. As a lover of propositions (as mental events, not mysterious abstract objects), I like this. |
18906 | Negating a predicate term and denying its unnegated version are quite different [Engelbretsen] |
Full Idea: There is a crucial distinction in term logic between affirming a negated predicate term of some subject and denying the unnegated version of that term of that same subject. We must distinguish 'X is non-P' from 'X is not P'. | |
From: George Engelbretsen (Trees, Terms and Truth [2005], 2) | |
A reaction: The first one affirms something about X, but the second one just blocks off a possible description of X. 'X is non-harmful' and 'X is not harmful' - if X had ceased to exist, the second would be appropriate and the first wouldn't? I'm guessing. |
22605 | Humeans describe the surface of causation, while powers accounts aim at deeper explanations [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Humeans attempt to describe causation without any deeper ontological commitments, while powers based accounts attempt to explain why causation occurs in the way it is described. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1) | |
A reaction: Exactly the view I have reached. The Humean view is correct but superficial. A perfect example of my allegiance to Explanatory Empiricism. |
22607 | Time and space are not causal, but they determine natural phenomena [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Time and space are significant determinants of natural phenomena, and yet are not (typically) regarded as causal determinants | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1.4) | |
A reaction: I like the word 'determinants'. Metaphysics largely concerns what determines what. I'm struggling to think of examples of this (which he does not give). Decay takes time, but isn't determined by time. Is a light cone a determinant? |
22608 | Casuation is the transmission of conserved quantities between causal processes [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Causal process theories state that causation needs to be understood in terms of causal processes and their interactions, in which conserved quantities are transmitted between causal processes. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1.5) | |
A reaction: Sounds a bit circular, but the idea of transmission of something is obviously the main point. I like this idea a lot (because it is so naturalistic), but rarely find it taken seriously. Energy is usually the quantity picked out. |
22614 | Interventionist causal theory says it gets a reliable result whenever you manipulate it [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: The core of agency and interventionist theories of causation is that c counts as the cause of e iff E reliably appears and disappears when you manipulate C. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 2.1) | |
A reaction: [C is the type of c; E is the type of e] James Woodward champions this view. Ingthorsson objects that the theory offers no explanation of the appearances and disappearances. You can't manipulate black holes… |
22621 | Causation as transfer only works for asymmetric interactions [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: The transference model of causation only works for asymmetric interactions. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 4.11) | |
A reaction: This is usually the transfer of energy. I liked the theory until I read this. |
22639 | Causal events are always reciprocal, and there is no distinction of action and reaction [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: I accept the reciprocity of interactions, and abandon the Agent vs.Patient distinction, so we can no longer talk of the contribution of each as ontologically different types of cause. In interactions, neither action nor reaction can be separated. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 10.3) | |
A reaction: His point is that we are misled by real world happenings, where one component is usually more powerful than the other (such as ball dropped onto a pillow). Modern science endorses his view. Mumford and Anjum seem to agree, and so do I. |
22615 | One effect cannot act on a second effect in causation, because the second doesn't yet exist [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Hobbes implies that a Kim-style event e1 existing at t1 cannot possibly act on an effect e2 at t2, because that effect does not exist until the Agent has worked its effect on the Patient to provoke a change, thus bringing the effect into existence. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 3.08) | |
A reaction: [Hobbes Elements of Phil 1656 II.IX.1] Ingthorsson says that the Hobbes view is the traditional 'standard' view, that objects (and not events) are the causal relata. A strong objection to events as the causal relata. Realists need objects. |
22616 | Empiricists preferred events to objects as the relata, because they have observable motions [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: It is the empiricists' refusal to deal with anything other than observable events that motivated the shift in conception of efficient causation …to influence by an event on another event (one motion on another) rather than by an object on an object. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 3.10) | |
A reaction: I suppose events supply the necessary activity, whereas objects seem to be too passive for the job - because that's how they look. Ingthorsson persuades that objects are the correct causal relata, for those of us who believe in powers. |
22617 | Science now says all actions are reciprocal, not unidirectional [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: It is now accepted as a fact of modern science that unidirectional actions do not exist, and that all interactions are instead thoroughly reciprocal. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 3.10) | |
A reaction: Ingthorsson says this undermines the standard traditional view (Hobbes etc) of Agent and Patient, with A having active powers and P having passive powers. All influences are mutual, it seems. Passive powers are active structures? |
22619 | Causes are not agents; the whole interaction is the cause, and the changed compound is the effect [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: By abandoning the standard view that causes are ‘extrinsic motive Agents’, an idea from pre-Newtonian physics, we are free to conceive of the interaction as a whole as the cause, and the change in the compound whole of interacting things as the effect. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 4.06) | |
A reaction: Ingthorsson persuasively presents this as the correct account, as understood by modern science. It is not cause-then-effect. It is kerfuffle, then aftermath. |
22635 | People only accept the counterfactual when they know the underlying cause [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: I doubt that anyone will accept any counterfactual as true unless they believe they know the underlying causality. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 9.3) | |
A reaction: Correct. Almost any example will support it. Compare coincidences and true causes. |
22634 | Counterfactuals don't explain causation, but causation can explain counterfactuals [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: I cannot identify any prima facie reason to think that causation can be explained in counterfactual terms, but plenty to think that causation can explain counterfactuals. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 9.1) | |
A reaction: Love it. Treating causation as counterfactual dependency is hopelessly superficial. What is the reality that is involved? He cites the second law of motion. |
22637 | Counterfactual theories are false in possible worlds where causation is actual [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: if there are worlds where there are causal powers and/or lawful connections, then they are worlds in which the counterfactual theory of causation is false, because there causes produce the effects, regardless of any possible world. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 9.6) | |
A reaction: A nice modern instance of turning the tables. Come to think of it, possible worlds theories are just asking for that. Are there possible worlds in which there are no other possible worlds? Or the possible worlds are inaccessible? |
22624 | A cause can fail to produce its normal effect, by prevention, pre-emption, finks or antidotes [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Counterexamples involving prevention and/or interference have come to be roughly divided into four main categories: (i) prevention, (ii) pre-emption, (iii) finks and (iv) antidotes. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 5.3) | |
A reaction: These are the reasons why necessity is denied in causation. i) is in the initial circumstances, ii) is another cause getting there first, iii) is a defusing action in the agent, iv) is a defusing action in the patient. No necessity if one is possible. |
22622 | Any process can go backwards or forwards in time without violating the basic laws of physics [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Because it makes no difference to exchange the time variable t with its contrary -t, in the fundamental laws of physics, any process can be described as going either backwards or forwards in time, without violating those laws. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 4.13) | |
A reaction: A few philosophers read a lot into this, but I don't. The inverse scenario may not breach the laws of physics, but it does involve time going backwards, which I think we can skip for now. Entropy would be interesting. Can information flow backwards? |
22618 | In modern physics the first and second laws of motion (unlike the third) fail at extremes [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: While the first and second laws of motion are known to fail in the domain of very fast-moving and massive objects (i.e. where relativity deviates from classical mechanics) as well as in the quantum realm, the third law is still assumed to hold good. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 4.04) | |
A reaction: This implies a universal status for the third law (equal and opposite reactions), which the other two lack. Ingthorsson sees this as crucial for our understanding of causation. |
22630 | If particles have decay rates, they can't really be elementary, in the sense of indivisible [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: We may wonder whether the fact that physics has calculated (and for some, confirmed) the decay rate of elementary particles can be a reason to think that they cannot really be ‘elementary’ in the philosophical sense of ‘indivisible’. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 7.6) | |
A reaction: I don't think anything can ever conclusively be labelled as 'elementary', but this idea offers a reason for doubting whether a candidate particle is so basic. Does decay imply having parts? |
22610 | It is difficult to handle presentism in first-order logic [Ingthorsson] |
Full Idea: Contemporary philosophers are not comfortable with presentism, because it is difficult to deal with presentism in the language of first-order predicate logic. | |
From: R.D. Ingthorsson (A Powerful Particulars View of Causation [2021], 1.8) | |
A reaction: Presumable that logic relies on objects which endure through time, or at least have a past. Second-order logic is better able to deal with processes, which only exist in the present, but nevertheless have an integral past and future. ? |